EP8. Is Your Confidence Really The Problem?
A Live Coaching Session with Anna Jonak where she explores what really sits beneath a clients lack of confidence.
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Anna Jonak: [00:00:46] Welcome to episode 8 of the Brave Business Podcast. Today you're in for a real treat because we've got a live coaching session for you. Now we are going to be doing a series of these throughout our podcast, across everything from business and strategy, marketing and the very reason we are here today which is mindset. My favourite. Now for those of you that don't know me I'm Anna Jonak. I'm a trained life coach and I cannot tell you how much this stuff lights me up. It's so incredible. The stuff that coaching can do for you as a tool to create like the most extraordinary change for you to open up your awareness and how you think, how you feel, how you act and ultimately how you create the results you want for yourself. Now with all of that said I would very much like to introduce you all to Avanthi. Hello.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:01:33] Hi.
Anna Jonak: [00:01:34] Let everyone know you're here. Do you know what you've gotten yourself in for.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:01:40] No idea but I'm excited it will be good.
Anna Jonak: [00:01:42] That is what we want - excitement. Avanthi bravely put her hand up to be coached before we actually launched a podcast. You were right in there. You got in there. You put your hand up, you're like give me some of that. And she's definitely here to create some change for herself. Now I would love you to give everyone just a little bit of a background as to you as a mum, you in business and ultimately why you're here today and we are literally just going to dive straight in and get into it.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:02:07] Awesome so I have a business called Tiki.Ink and I'm an artist, at the moment at home on maternity leave with my little baby. And I've also got a five year old. And so they've sort of been my biggest motivation I think to kick start this and give it a real good go because I think I can, I think it's possible, it's just knowing where to start. And sort of controlling my confidence issues really and going past the hurdles of that. So I have a little business. It's just started, the very beginning, very infancy I guess. And I don't really know where it's headed. But I know I want something from it.
Anna Jonak: [00:03:01] Awesome. So you've got a why it's like you said you've got your family driving you. You know you want something from it and you're trying to figure that out. But the key word that you came up with and essentially what we've spoken about, we've written to each other about, was the word confidence. So can you give me a little bit of an insight specifically into what that looks like for you. And I guess how I can help you on that today.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:03:26] OK. So I guess my biggest reason for doubting my confidence is the whole concept of being an artist and having a career as an artist. I think it's not, it's not seen as something that's normal, you know I don't particularly want to climb the corporate ladder or anything like that. It's my passion. It is literally my passion and being creative, it's helped me through so many things. But every now and then I doubt my abilities. I doubt if it's worth it, if I should literally just go and do a 9 to 5, but then I think of my why. You know I think of all the reasons and I don't particularly want to live by someone else's rules.
Anna Jonak: [00:04:20] Nice. Well I'm going to say the first thing that you said was that it's not normal and it's not normal to do this. [Avanthi laughs] So I'd like to ask you to consider, according to whom, it's not normal in whose eyes.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:04:41] So I guess I come from a very straight, I wouldn't say straight forward, but a culture where being an artist isn't really recognised as a career or as an option for generating income. It's seen as a hobby as a craft that you do, when you can, when you retire, when you're a kid. And so I spent years fighting that. You know I went to uni multiple times and studied multiple things and still I'm just not interested in doing any of those things. But it's the judgement I think that comes with it. So I feel like sometimes I can be judged but then maybe it's just me judging myself. It's just make critiquing myself and that's the hard bit and so I think maybe I should not be doing this and I should be just doing, going and getting my degree in something you know. Yeah.
Anna Jonak: [00:05:49] That's OK. So there's a sense, I'm just going to kind of give you back what you've kind of fed to me, is that the sense of in your culture that ultimately it's not approved of or frowned upon or it's not specifically seen as a career. And that's something that you have carried around with you. However you've told me in the same breath that you have fought it like you've kind of tried all these different things. And then you always come back to this thing, which by the way when you talked about it was like, this is my passion I'm so into it. Like your whole body and demeanour and language was like just so lit up by this whole area. Before that negative chatter came in. Now you talked about judgement. And you went from talking about being judged by others to judging yourself. So which is it.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:06:46] Do you know, I think it's just me being hard on myself. I'll give you an example, so this weekend I had a massive event at Fed Square and it was phenomenal. And I had so many people come and tell me how absolutely wonderful my artwork was and that because I'm I'm purely self-taught, a lot of people couldn't believe it. And even though I had all these compliments thrown at me, the next day after it finished I doubted everything and I thought, I know it's just me because I had so much support, people, friends, family, they all came to me like people that I haven't seen in years came to support me at this event because they were so proud of me. And even after all that it's like I just could not see the positive. And I know it's there, today I'm extremely positive about it and I know what the future is. But every now and then I just dip down I lack so much confidence in myself in my abilities. And I question all of it and maybe I think as well as the sometimes lacking confidence, it's pushing against the hard work that requires to achieve the things that I want to achieve. Possibly.
Anna Jonak: [00:08:14] Give me some more about that. What do you mean specifically.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:08:23] I think for me, for what I want, it's going to take a lot of hard work from myself. So I don't know. It means like on the weekend for example I had to sacrifice a lot of family time and my kids are really important to me my partner is really important to me and so I battle with myself. And I thought, is this really worth it. But I know down the track it will be. And I know that I did something that was so fulfilling and it was absolutely amazing. And I would do it again. But it was just the aftermath and then I thought about everyone else that I was maybe letting down.
Anna Jonak: [00:09:05] Who were you letting down.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:09:07] My kids and my partner. That's what I felt like I was.
Anna Jonak: [00:09:10] Were you letting them down. Did they express that.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:09:13] No. They weren't. Well my little girl was quite upset actually, she was upset that she hadn't seen me for a few days and that really hurt, and I thought, OK well how am I going to keep doing this. When I had to put in a lot of hours beforehand and she saw that and I wasn't spending as much time I guess being a quality mum with her. But everyone else. No. They were so supportive they were like this is your dream and this is you, even people that I thought weren't so positive or maybe were a little bit negative towards me or my dream, they were all so supportive. And I realise that maybe it's just me and the hardest part was my little girl when she was, she said she missed me and
Anna Jonak: [00:10:06] Of course she misses you, that's totally normal. All our kids are going to miss us if we haven't been home for a while. The thing that you need to hone in on is the fact that you've talked about in your mind what it means to be a quality mum. So they're the words you used. So from that I'm taking that your view is that a quality mum is someone that should always be there for their children.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:10:32] Yep, yep. And I guess I am always there for my kids all the time so being away to do this. But then at the same time if I was you know off maternity leave I would go back to work I would be away from home and...
Anna Jonak: [00:10:46] Exactly.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:10:47] So it was maybe it's just explaining that to her. And saying this is now mummy's job and this is what I have to do.
Anna Jonak: [00:10:56] Absolutely. And also something to think about is the role model, that the representation that she has from you with doing this. Think about the fact that if you're all mum and nothing else then yes, you're there for her and she gets all her needs met in every single way. That's wonderful [Avanthi agrees] but what if your not so fulfilled and she's going to see that whereas the flip side of that is still having her needs met and seeing a woman go out and follow her dreams and show her daughter that man you can do this. Look what I'm doing. [Avanthi agrees] How amazing is that.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:11:29] Yes. And even though she's really upset she actually drew a picture of one of my pieces and said to me she wanted to be exactly like me.
Anna Jonak: [00:11:41] Oh my gosh that is adorable.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:11:44] And so even though she missed me, she said I want to do what you're doing mum. And I thought OK well I can keep that with me and that should be my driving factor.
Anna Jonak: [00:11:57] Oh my gosh, totally, 100 percent something to look at, somewhat your daughter modelling you. She's just modelled you and told you she wants to be just like you [Avanthi agrees]. If that's not full of pride, you know I don't know what is. OK. So looking at this then, you've literally got everybody backing you, everybody in awe of what you're doing and saying it's amazing. So let's come back to the confidence, the judgement. If you've not had any negative judgement, for what point do you come back to that sense of doubt.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:12:30] I wonder if it's, I think the confidence thing is me wondering if what I'm doing is a feasible way to bringing income to live, to, yeah yeah.
Anna Jonak: [00:12:49] So that comes back to the view that you had at the beginning which is that it's not a proper job.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:12:54] 100 percent. And I fight that all the time.
Anna Jonak: [00:12:59] Do you actually believe that, believe that it's not a proper job.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:13:08] I did until very very recently and I think that's why I'm still fighting it. It wasn't until literally a few months ago where I thought no I'm, this can be this can be a proper career. And it's something that I've fought for over, you know 10-15 years. So I'm sort of slowly undoing it now.
Anna Jonak: [00:13:31] What do you mean. What do you mean by fought for the last 10-15 years.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:13:36] That I should just go and do a job. A nine to five. And not pursue this.
Anna Jonak: [00:13:43] So that should - I want you to, this is where you need to think about your values and what's important. And quite often when we say we should do something it's quite often the view of others that we are projecting. So the should comes from family or culture or society with regards to what we feel we should be doing and the box that we should be sitting in and you know the sheep we should be following as opposed to being able to break free. And I get that through conditioning ultimately through you know hearing that over and over and over that you get to a point when you feel like you're really kind of, it's scary stepping out into a place where people are looking at you and you're going against the grain.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:14:24] So scary.
Anna Jonak: [00:14:26] Of course it is.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:14:26] It's so scary.
Anna Jonak: [00:14:29] It's the unknown. And what you're doing is essentially you're, you know, untwine-ing yourself. Don't even know if that's a word. But you know kind of like...
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:14:38] ...unwinding? [laughs]
Anna Jonak: [00:14:38] Unwinding or untangling maybe untangling. [Avanthi laughing] You're untangling yourself from something that is potentially something that you've always been led to believe. Whether you truly believed it wholeheartedly or not. And yes you're making a stand. Of course it's scary.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:14:55] Yeah. And so that's probably another factor that comes into it because it's me taking a big leap of faith in myself that I can achieve this. And I want to achieve it not for anybody else but I want to achieve it for me. Because that's what I wanted for so long.
Anna Jonak: [00:15:15] So you're saying you've wanted it for so long. Like I said the passion was obvious. It sounds like you've been honestly fighting yourself for the last 10 or 15 years.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:15:26] Oh I have. Oh I have. [laughs]. Yeah big time, big time. Yeah definitely.
Anna Jonak: [00:15:33] And can I ask, in the culture that you're in, so with regards to your, say your parents or your family in that respect, how have they been from a reception to what you're doing.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:15:45] Tough. They were pretty tough. But in in all honesty I think it's because I would do a lot of talking and not a lot of action. And now that they can see that I am so gung ho on this and I'm so full speed ahead. They're really happy to support me.
Anna Jonak: [00:16:17] Awesome.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:16:17] And maybe that's what I should have done years and years ago but I can't live in the past and I'm doing it now. But yeah that was, they were tough. So I'm an only child as well [laughs] so tons of pressure. And I just didn't, I just don't fit the mould of what they wanted. And I think that was really really hard for them to accept.
Anna Jonak: [00:16:43] What do you think that they wanted.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:16:52] They wanted me to have a stable career. From very early on they wanted me to, so I started an architecture degree. They wanted me to finish that and I didn't and it's so strange because I still have some family members, not my parents, but some family members telling me that I should go back and finish it and that's never going to happen because it's just, it's just not in me at all to go and do that. And it's really hard to explain to a lot of people because I think, I don't know I felt like a lot of people had expectations of me. And I haven't matched any of those [laughing]. For me it's in a good way because I think you know what, I'm going to do what I want to do. But it's also really hard when people have a view of you and then they have to let them go.
Anna Jonak: [00:17:53] Of course. Everybody has, I mean and this is kind of like it's everybody has a view of what they want in their life and there's a lot of projection happening. So with their families quite often they project their own unmet needs onto us. Parents can quite often do this if they didn't perhaps get as far as they wanted. They want the best for you and they end up enforcing a lot of things on you. And sometimes that can be unhealthy even though they do it with the best intentions like most people don't know what they're doing. Like let's be honest a lot of people don't have the conscious awareness around how they're behaving they just kind of kind of going through the motions because they haven't got that conscious awareness around it. So if that's what your parents are potentially projecting on you, they probably didn't know any different. You have the beauty now of starting to have awareness around the fact that potentially they, you know they had a view and what they wanted for you to meet some of their own needs as opposed to potentially being able to look at you as an individual and saying you know go forth and be free and make this would be you.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:18:54] Yeah. Also, I mean my parents are very very successful in what they do. So they are actually very highly educated very successful. And I think they wanted that for me. That's what I think they wanted for me. They wanted, and not that I'm not highly educated or successful, but I'm just not going down the path that they would have liked me to go down that's all.
Anna Jonak: [00:19:24] That may well be though. And again this is an assumption, at the end of the day, if you in two years time have got this thriving business do you think that that judgment or concern or we rather you are an architect if you're doing exactly the same numbers and is going to be the same.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:19:40] I don't know. To be honest. I don't know if it would be. I think it's now at a stage where they would be happy to support me.
Anna Jonak: [00:19:51] Something for you to think about is that the projection of what you get from your parents is ultimately a view like a mirror on what you're putting out. So if you get from your parents that they aren't confident in you or they're worried about you. That's probably because you're projecting doubt and uncertainty. Even if they want the best for you. If you're out there going do you know what, I know that this is what you want for me but that's not who I am and I'm not going to do that. I'm going to do this and I'm going to make it work., watch me. There's going to be a different level of watching you then, you know it's going to be a different view watching you with an attitude like that as opposed to one where you're kind of like you're doubting yourself and you're not really backing yourself.
'Wow that was the nail on the head. Exactly. That is I couldn't have said it better myself' - Avanthi
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:20:33] Yeah. Wow that was the nail on the head. Exactly. That is I couldn't have said it better myself. That's probably exactly what it was for a really long time. It was me umming and ahhing about everything just back and forth changing my mind. I'm doing this and doing that, no I'm doing this again. And I think they just were like, well you just do it and then come tell us when you're done. That sort of thing.
Anna Jonak: [00:21:03] 'Here she goes again.'
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:21:04] Yeah exactly. Exactly. And I remember [laughing] my Dad telling me once, he said 'so what are you studying now.' Because he just lost count, [laughing] he just lost track. And I know he said it fondly, but I would get upset because I thought ok they're not taking it seriously but fair. I think it was in all fairness because I was back and forth and not focused and I've only found that focus this year.
Anna Jonak: [00:21:37] Is it that you've only found that focus though or is it only that you've given permission to find, you've given yourself permission to do it. Because it sounds to me, you told me I've been battling myself for 10-15 years so it sounds like it's always been something that's been there.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:21:49] Yeah. But I've never paid enough attention to it. I think until, you're right, I've given myself the permission to put everything into this, this year.
Anna Jonak: [00:22:03] Whereas previously you trying to meet the standards or the expectations of everybody else and because at the core you weren't happy you kept changing direction.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:22:15] Yep, so true. [laughs] That's pretty much it. Yeah.
Anna Jonak: [00:22:21] OK. Well that's interesting so I'm wondering whether there's a bit of that though that has kind of carried over in that because you weren't able to or because you did flip around so much. Is there any of that coming into what you're doing now that maybe I'm just going to change direction, maybe I'm not going to see this through.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:22:38] Yeah I really want to see this through. I do, but every now and then I falter and I go 'this is really hard' [laughs]. But then by the end of the day or the next morning I'm like nah I'm doing this I'm putting in the hard yards to do this because I want this.
Anna Jonak: [00:23:07] What's the hard got to do with. What's wrong with doing bit of hard work.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:23:16] Nothing absolutely nothing wrong. And it's, I absolutely enjoy all of it when I do it, so maybe it's a little bit of I've never really had to work that hard for anything. I think I've never had to.
Anna Jonak: [00:23:32] Is that because you just kept leaving things though.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:23:35] Oh yeah I'm a big quitter. Yeah definitely. I'm a 'this is too hard. I'm just going to leave it' and my mum's very good at telling me a lot of truth. And one of the ones she said is if you know you're not going to conquer something really easily you give up and I used to hate when she said that, but she is so right.
Anna Jonak: [00:24:01] So what sits at that. When was the first encounter of that. [Avanthi laughs] When did you first do something and fail or quit. When did you first quit.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:24:19] Had a photography business. If it's business related, I had a photography business and like stopped.
Anna Jonak: [00:24:25] I'm talking about way back when, I'm talking about like in early kid stuff.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:24:34] Way back when. Wow. I do remember I used to be a sprinter, a runner, and I just stopped training because I was like I'm not going to win. I mean most of the time I came second. Every now and then I'd come first but I just quit. I was like yeh, too hard. But if I put in the hours I had all the support from you know coaches, teachers, parents.
Anna Jonak: [00:25:10] So what did quitting give you in that moment.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:25:14] An easy way out. So easy. But did I regret it. Yes. Yeah definitely.
Anna Jonak: [00:25:22] But what was it, what was it protecting you from, an easy way out of what exactly. Hard work or
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:25:28] hard work and failure.
Anna Jonak: [00:25:31] Failure.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:25:31] Yeah because I didn't want to put in the hours and
Anna Jonak: [00:25:36] For what reason didn't you want to put the hours in.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:25:44] I don't know to be honest. I'd probably rather complain about [laughs] how hard it was than actually, do you know what I mean. I was doing a lot as a child. I was a very busy busy child. And for me I just sort of well if I stop this then I can just focus on the other stuff. But I never focused on the other stuff either, really, and then I regretted it. I would regret it. I don't anymore. And I think wow just imagine if I'd put in the effort. If I'd trained, if I'd done all these things and maybe I could have done something really cool, but I quit and you know,
Anna Jonak: [00:26:40] That's your pattern.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:26:41] Oh it is because I quit my architecture degree. I did interior design, stopped that, did psychology, stopped that, did photography but actually,
Anna Jonak: [00:26:56] This isn't about confidence. This is about your default is to quit when it gets too hard.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:27:04] Oh yeah. And just to go back to what's easy and right now it's that you're right. That's exactly right. I just go 'whoa it's just to hard'.
Anna Jonak: [00:27:12] What are you, are you afraid of being successful.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:27:20] I've never thought about it actually. I've never thought about being afraid of being successful because I did never think that it's possible.
Anna Jonak: [00:27:29] Maybe you quit before you got there.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:27:31] I know.
Anna Jonak: [00:27:34] So you never believed it. You never believed success is possible in any of these things.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:27:42] I believed I could have been a successful architect. Yeah very successful. And I believed I could have been a successful photographer as well.
Anna Jonak: [00:27:51] So but you quit these things.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:27:56] I did. I'm not thrilled about it and I don't want to be that person anymore. I don't want to be the quitter anymore. I don't want that from this because this passion is too strong. Art's just, it's taken me through a lot of ups and downs it's got a lot of emotion tied into it so I'm not ready to quit this. I'm not failing it.
Anna Jonak: [00:28:20] Oh absolutely. I mean I get the passion for it. I absolutely get the passion for it and I get your fear with where you at. I just want you to get the view right on in that you came with the problem of feeling that you don't have confidence and doubt and everything else. But really I think it's much more at the fear of potentially success. The habit of quitting and that fear around hard work because you've never really gone through the completion of doing it you never really allowed yourself to go in and do all the work and reach that success. You always stop before you get there.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:29:01] Yep. I don't even stop at the halfway mark. I stop way before. I don't even give myself the time to get to the halfway mark. And I can see it now. There's a lot of the things that I do that I just stop and I go 'yeh too hard'. And I wouldn't, I used to be a procrastinator, big time, a big thinker. I guess you'd say someone that thought a lot about doing things and thought a lot about what my life would be like if I'd just put in the hours, if I just put in the hard yards and then I would just to run that in a circle.
Anna Jonak: [00:29:47] I want to know what you make the hard yards mean like you've created something about doing the hard work.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:29:55] Yeh I've made it sound ominous I think in my head. When it's not really.
Anna Jonak: [00:29:59] But what do you see, I mean what do you see as. What do you see hard work as.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:30:05] Putting in the hours. Putting in the hours like right now is I mean if I get back to what I'm doing now then it requires a lot of hours, hours to put in the drawing, the writing, the blog.
Anna Jonak: [00:30:24] Hours in something that you love.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:30:28] Yeah yeah.
Anna Jonak: [00:30:30] So which way are you looking at it though. So your hours are lost. You're looking at lost time or something. You not looking at what you're going to gain, your focus is on something negative.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:30:41] Yep, because I feel like I'm spending too much time doing something that I love when I should be and it's because I still see it as a hobby. I don't see it as work. So when I'm working on a piece,
Anna Jonak: [00:30:59] That's this now. But if you look at these back as a pattern like again what did you make the hard yards mean when you were sprinting. What did you make the hard yards mean in the other things.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:31:10] The hours of training.
Anna Jonak: [00:31:13] What would that take away, take you away from.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:31:16] As a child it would have been, not even, as a teenager it would've been maybe [laughs] something you know as trivial as playing video games.
Anna Jonak: [00:31:27] Did you feel that was a lot of, well you said you were really really busy. So it was that because you were doing a ton of different things you didn't want to be doing.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:31:36] No because I struggled with I guess like you say focusing on one thing. I used to do a lot. I used to be a gymnast, tennis, athletics. And they took up a lot of hours. So I didn't have a lot of free time as a child. Either I was at school or I was at something else so in the free time I would do my art. And so as I got older in my older teenage years I would say well if I don't do this then I can spend more hours drawing, but I then I didn't do either. And I would just procrastinate and then I'd wallow in it because [laughs] I hadn't done either and I though 'what am I doing', like I'm not doing anything. I'm not doing this and I'm not doing that. I'm just sitting here, that was me as a teenager.
Anna Jonak: [00:32:35] So you wanted to give things up for the art but then you never gave yourself permission to follow the passion.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:32:42] No never. Because I thought why should we do homework or I should be -
Anna Jonak: [00:32:47] So many shoulds man, so many shoulds.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:32:51] So many. And I used to live in that, and I still do. [laughs] I still go, I should be doing this instead of doing my art or writing my next blog piece or doing research or but why I can't justify the why, I think why am I doing this and no one else is putting pressure on me to do anything else. Like I can't even say that I've got them. I mean I'm got the most supportive partner. He doesn't expect anything like you don't want to cook, don't cook I'll cook, you don't want to clean, don't clean I'll clean.
Anna Jonak: [00:33:24] Nice.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:33:24] You know he's just you don't want to watch the baby, that's fine I'll put her down. It's just, it's just me it's just me putting pressure on myself to everything else as well as this and then I go well the art side of it can wait. So I've done that for years.
Anna Jonak: [00:33:44] It's not you though. It's a pattern that you run but it's not you. And it comes from the environment that you're in. But what you've done is you've identified with this as you I'm just a quitter, I'm just someone who never follows through, I'm someone who am always procrastinates over art, I'm someone who should be doing this. The thing is when you identify with something as you - it's me - how the hell are you going to step out of that. The difference between you owning it as I me I personality. This is just who I am. Well then we're f***ed basically [Avanthi laughs] do you know what I mean, you are, because there you go, that's just you. All right then. Don't worry about it then just see how you go. It's not you. It's the patten that you've run, it's behaviour, it's a strategy that you've been running for a very long time. Most likely in the early stages, I would say to conform to fit in to do what was expected. It never fit for you so what you did is you kept switching and switching and switching in the hope that you'd find something that would probably fit the mould of what they wanted that you could find some passion in. But you never really found it. So it just became a lot of hard work in something that you didn't really want to do. [Avanthi agrees] So it's easier to quit and do the next thing without actually having to follow through to be successful in it because you didn't goddamn want to do it. [Avanthi laughs and agrees] So why would you put the hard yards in, what's the point, I don't want to do this. So why am I doing it. I'm going to try this. Well now that doesn't fit either. I'm not going to put the hard yards into it. I don't really want to do that.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:35:21] Wow that's so succinct. That's exactly right.
Anna Jonak: [00:35:29] So is it you.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:35:33] It's not me it's a behaviour.
Anna Jonak: [00:35:37] It's a behaviour to protect yourself. Like you said to conform to give your parents to meet expectations and we order these things to protect ourselves and to try and fit in and to try and be who our parents want us to be in early stages. And those things are protected behaviours then because we often associate love with those things, we feel loved when our parents are like yes you're doing so well. Do you know what I mean. [Avanthi laughs]. You associate, there's the feelings of love and being accepted and when you're constantly kind of like floundering around and you see those looks of disappointment in your parents faces. You take that on board as something that means that they don't love you or they don't care about you, when really there's just a concern or they're projecting things from their own experiences and everything else. So you've learnt to I guess try and appease everybody except yourself the whole time [Avanthi agrees]. But because you're obviously quite strong willed whether you like it or not, there's a part of you that's been fighting the whole time with the person that quits. I don't want to do this. We're not doing this yet.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:36:41] Yeh let's go back to whatever's easy.
Anna Jonak: [00:36:43] Yeah let's just do this because I can kind of get away with floundering around here. I don't have to stand up against anyone [Avanthi laughs] and say hey I'm going to be different. So I don't have to be uncomfortable being different and I don't have to be uncomfortable doing something I don't want to do. So if I stay in the middle maybe I can just get away with all of this and I don't have to face anything.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:37:01] Wow. [laughs] That's so so accurate, that's so accurate. I think I've never had someone tell me so beautifully exactly what I've done for so long.
Anna Jonak: [00:37:20] You stayed safe. You're playing small.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:37:26] I don't want to play it safe anymore.
Anna Jonak: [00:37:28] No you don't. You haven't from the beginning. The passion that you have when you talk about this thing is insane. I don't think you understand. I don't think that you understand you'd be fighting your passion. You've been fighting your passion for like 10 years. [Avanthi agrees]. You've been avoiding something which could bring you so much joy and pleasure like you have. Like that is what you need to focus on what you've missed, you've missed like the way that you talk about this stuff. Like I feel emotional for you that you've missed out on so much joy and creativity because you've tried to play it like sit in the middle ground and not be anything and not kind of like rock too many boats.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:38:07] Yeah. Definitely.
Anna Jonak: [00:38:12] So you tell me based on the conversation we just had, what you think this is really about. It's not really about confidence is it.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:38:19] Not really. No it's not. Actually it's not. And I know that because I'm quite confident in what I do. It's about all the other things and it's about quitting because there's a part of me that just wants to play it safe. There's a part of me that says no I'm just I'm just going to go back to what I was doing and it's so funny because I would still, even just recently, when I said to still give it up in a heartbeat and just go back to what I was doing that you know Sam my partner said that's crazy. Why would you do that. Because you're taking away time from what you love to do. That's just silly. I don't do that. But yet here I am saying that no one else wants it for me, but I'm like well I'll just go back to what I was doing and it's easier. It's just easier.
Anna Jonak: [00:39:27] It's easier. I don't have to, I don't have to work hard. I don't have to be judged.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:39:31] No. Nup not at all.
Anna Jonak: [00:39:34] And I can find something else to do in a little while because I'm not really that satisfied [Avanthi laughs] let's just keep floundering, let's keep going. Mate we could do another 15 years. What do you reckon.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:39:45] No I don't want to. [laughs]
Anna Jonak: [00:39:45] Let's do it. Come on.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:39:50] No no I can't I can't I can't keep doing this. I can't keep floundering like this for the rest of my life which could easily happen, which could so easily happen.
Anna Jonak: [00:40:02] But the choice is, the choice is yours. [Avanthi agrees] This is where I want to get to is that up until now you've been rocking a pattern, you've probably been aware of it in some ways unaware of it in many ways and just it just happens.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:40:16] So how do I break the pattern.
Anna Jonak: [00:40:18] You've got awareness around it now so you go are going to know when you get to a point when you go 'I just want to go and be safe somewhere I don't want to be judged. I don't want to step out the zone and you know I'll just go back to what's safe.' You have to ask yourself is this who I want to be.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:40:36] Ok.
Anna Jonak: [00:40:36] Is this who I want to be. Is this the role model I want to be. Is this what I really want for myself. Now think about is there a visual you have of you like enjoying your art something that you can go back to when you felt your joy. And how you feel when you're connected to it.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:40:55] Yeah. Ok I have that actually. So clear in my head yes.
Anna Jonak: [00:41:01] Basically, we need to break the pattern through, so the pattern needs to be broken through like a pattern interrupt.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:41:06] Ok.
Anna Jonak: [00:41:06] So your tendency is going to be to go towards that and as soon as you find yourself in that, you need to do something like to shock yourself out of it.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:41:14] Ok.
Anna Jonak: [00:41:14] So, do something, do the opposite, do as soon as you feel like oh I'm going to give up like find like put a post on social media and say that you're holding another gallery. Just do something that basically holds you accountable. And is really goddamn scary but keeps you on track.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:41:35] Ok.
Anna Jonak: [00:41:35] Because what's going to happen is that the more that you own this and say I'm going to do this the more people are going to back you. The more people are going to celebrate it with you. The more that you are going to feel that this is you and the old behaviour it will eventually die but the choice starts with you, as soon as you have conscious awareness you have a choice. And what I want you to understand is that in that moment you can choose to flounder or you can choose to fight like you can get uncomfortable but you can choose to fight and think about what's on the side of fighting if you actually chose to goddamn fight and go for it, where could you be. What is possible.
'...the choice starts with you, as soon as you have conscious awareness you have a choice.' - Anna Jonak
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:42:21] So many things. I can visualise it.
Anna Jonak: [00:42:26] Tell me and give me some visual man.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:42:30] So I really really want to have a gallery exhibition. I can picture that but something else I really I would love to do is to connect people with creativity. So there are so many people that I meet that just, not children, more so adults sort of you know early 20s on, I met so many people that just don't know how to be creative anymore. They don't know how to go with their imagination and I would love to teach people how to reconnect because I had to reconnect with mine and it was really hard because you just have to trust your instinct, you have to trust your gut that what you're going to put on paper is eventually going to be awesome but you have to start. You have to trust what's in your mind. And I had to learn that and,
Anna Jonak: [00:43:29] Wow just imagine if you just apply that thinking.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:43:36] Yeah that's what I would one day like to do and I can see myself having some sort of maybe like a workshop or retreat where I get to bring people and say I want you to reconnect with your creativity because it will just open up your mind and it will help you with so many things.
Anna Jonak: [00:44:01] Can I just say Brene Brown. I don't know if you've heard of Brene Brown but you should look her up because,
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:44:07] Ok I will.
Anna Jonak: [00:44:07] she looks, she's like a researcher into people that are basically they feel they self accept and they self love. They feel good about themselves basically. They feel enough and essentially one of her key things in the people that feel this way about themselves is the fact that they enable their creativity. And she's a big believer that so many people are creatively closed off, we're so caught up in doing the do and everything else and you know the time that we have that we forget to be creative and it really shuts off a huge part of what it means for us. So I think that you'd find that quite interesting. I think that you'd probably get, it reinforces essentially what you're saying.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:44:46] Yeah I think it would help a lot of people just to think outside the box a little bit.
Anna Jonak: [00:44:52] So you want to help people. You want to help people.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:44:57] I want to help people. 100 percent.
Anna Jonak: [00:44:59] Oh my God. So you want to help people and then you dare to flounder.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:45:06] Yes yes. Is that terrible. Yeah. I find a lot of ways to help people but not in the way that I really really want.
Anna Jonak: [00:45:16] Do you want to help people do something amazing.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:45:20] Yeah I want people to get reconnected with something they love to do art based, very specific, so and I'm not saying that I have all the techniques I have some of the techniques and whatnot but then I want to be able to help connect them with people that have those techniques. And I want to be able to say if you enjoy pottery and that's what you found if you enjoy playing with clay, so it starts as simple as buying a block of clay and playing with it. If I spark something in you, let me help you find a pottery class, let me help you connect with someone who does sculpture and that's where I want to lead. That's where I want to go. And mentally it's helped, I mean being creative and pursuing my art has done so much for me and I think it would do a lot for a lot of other people too. So that's how I want to help people.
Anna Jonak: [00:46:14] That's a big why it's a part of why.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:46:19] Ok yeah, that's a huge one.
Anna Jonak: [00:46:20] What did it give you.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:46:25] It gave me a lot of confidence. So I'm also a commission artist and I had a couple of commissions come through and what that taught me was that I have to go beyond my boundaries of technique and challenge myself to create an amazing piece for someone else. And that didn't just didn't teach me about art and pushing boundaries in the art world but it taught me about pushing boundaries in everyday life. Like you have to step out of your comfort zone [Anna agrees] and those few things have just spurred on so many other things where I'm like yeah I'm gonna sign up to that I'm gonna sign up to that because I have no idea what to expect or i have no idea what it's going to be like, I'm just going to do it because what's the worst that can happen.
Anna Jonak: [00:47:14] Exactly right. What is the worst that can happen.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:47:17] Yeah. What I mean the worst that I and I don't look at it as failure. I look at it as if it doesn't go well then I've learnt a lot from it and I can take those learnings and I can put them into action.
Anna Jonak: [00:47:31] I believe that you believe that some of the time.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:47:35] Not all the time. Oh yeah.
Anna Jonak: [00:47:38] I believe that you believe in the sentiment. I don't believe you own it with your heart.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:47:42] No I don't. Because right now I'm pondering...
Anna Jonak: [00:47:46] ...floundering
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:47:47] Yeh I'm floundering and I don't know why I have no idea what's the worst that can happen if I actually do this and they say no. So I just apply somewhere else.
Anna Jonak: [00:48:02] If you went for it, the worst thing could happen is that you actually followed your passion that you've been suppressing for ten years. Is that you've given yourself permission to follow something and to follow through. And to do it wholeheartedly.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:48:15] Yep.
Anna Jonak: [00:48:16] That's the worst that can happen because on the journey, if you're going on a business journey, mate that's another story, but that it starts with you coming back to that point of the reason you're doing it and based on what you've told me you're why is about your truth. It's speaking your truth. It's about actually giving yourself permission to be you in whatever that looks like.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:48:50] Yeah because I don't think I've given myself permission to do that. [Anna agrees] for as long as I can remember really.
Anna Jonak: [00:48:57] By being you, you will give others permission to do the same through the work that you do. There are so many people in a similar position where we worry about what we should do, who we should be, appeasing this person following the herd, but we deny ourselves like our true self [Avanthi agrees]. And if this is your only chance at life, do you want to live your whole life denying who you actually are not accepting and admiring and showing people like how awesome you are.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:49:34] No but I don't think I'm awesome. [laughs] But no I don't want to. I don't want to live a life like that. I don't want to live this life like that, at all.
Anna Jonak: [00:49:45] Your awesomeness will come. Like as in your belief in it. The more that you give it the more that you allow yourself to be you, the more that you embrace it the more that you accept yourself. It's about self acceptance.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:50:01] Yep definitely it is. It is. And I would love to help other people with that journey as well. I would love to do that.
Anna Jonak: [00:50:16] So don't love it, do it. I don't want to hear the language I would love to say that you're not I want to hear I'm going to.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:50:25] OK. I'm going to do it. [laughs]
Anna Jonak: [00:50:30] Are you all in.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:50:33] Yeah I'm all in.
Anna Jonak: [00:50:33] Are you fighting.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:50:36] I am yep, do you hear the hesitantance in my voice.
Anna Jonak: [00:50:40] Yeh I did. I'm like what the hell was that.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:50:45] Because yeah. And that goes that's the exact same thing I don't want to quit but in my head I feel like that pattern is already emerging.
Anna Jonak: [00:50:56] Floundering floundering floundering that's your choice. If you choose to flounder, own it, own the fact that you choose to live half a life and that you deny yourself when you don't accept yourself that's going to suck. Own it though. If that's what you choose to do you can default, but own the behaviour. I am choosing to deny myself right now. I am choosing safety. I'm choosing to play small and the long term consequences of this choice is more of the same old sh** that I've been doing for 15 years.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:51:30] Yeah I don't want that. That sounds horrible.
Anna Jonak: [00:51:32] It's what you're doing so own it. Own the shitty choice.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:51:39] I don't want to. I don't want to do that. I don't want to be that person any more, so no I'm not going to.
Anna Jonak: [00:51:48] That was a bit more assertive.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:51:52] [laughs] Because I don't want it when you put it so bluntly which is what I needed. I don't want it. I don't want that I don't want to flounder anymore. And I, I just don't.
Anna Jonak: [00:52:06] Well remember it's your choice.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:52:10] Yeah and I'm going to go with what I choose to do.
Anna Jonak: [00:52:14] I want you, what I think would be the most amazing thing and what I would love for you to do. And something that we can share on our page.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:52:27] oh my gosh
Anna Jonak: [00:52:28] I want you to draw a piece that shows you setting yourself free. That shows you choosing the fight and saying I'm all in, that I'm going for it. Something that you'll never forget. Because this is a defining moment for you right now. Where you are going to create something which shows that you are going to love and accept yourself and you're going to fight for the journey that is right for you. [Avanthi agrees] You think you can do that for me.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:52:59] I can do that. A hundred percent. Yeah.
'Past, present and future' by Avanthi Ravindran
Anna Jonak: [00:53:02] I think for you to connect with something in a way that works for you to bring that to life and have something that you look at everyday is going to be your reminder of the path that you choose.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:53:21] Yep ok. I can do that. I can do that and I want to do that.
Anna Jonak: [00:53:22] Awesome.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:53:22] I want to be reminded
Anna Jonak: [00:53:25] Of the choice that you have.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:53:26] Yes. Yes.
Anna Jonak: [00:53:29] OK. So tell me, I'm going to say we're coming to an end. How do you feel now.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:53:45] [laughs] I feel like I was just given a slap in the face.
Anna Jonak: [00:53:48] [laughs] You're welcome. [both laugh].
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:53:52] But in the best way I needed someone to tell me exactly how it is and break it down so well because I couldn't do it. And so I now know what's holding me back and I can think of that every time I go I don't want to do this or I'm just going to go back to that because I'm going to remember everything that I've created as a habit and I want to break those habits, I want to break the pattern.
Anna Jonak: [00:54:27] Totally.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:54:27] So I'm going to push through. That's what I've taken away and yes so much to think about but not in a negative way at all.
Anna Jonak: [00:54:40] This is just the beginning. What's happening, what'll happen now is that like this will just work on your like subconscious like it will work on multiple levels but in the best way as in your you'll, because what we're doing is we are like opening up your thinking so as soon as you do that you open up your sphere of thinking that you're going to get new information. You're going to start seeing things differently because you now have got a different view on things if that makes sense.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:55:05] Yes.
Anna Jonak: [00:55:05] So you'll start to see things and you know that you're going to have moments when you're going to want to flounder because it's just default mate, it's default, it's easy. And I also trust that by recalling our conversation, remembering your power to choose, by having this visual, by articulating this to anyone and everyone, to listening to this again, by you know by meditating on it, whatever you need to do you can put yourself in a position where you choose to fight and that becomes you. And as I said the more that you repeat the pattern of choosing to fight the floundering, neurologically neural pathways will die to that behaviour.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:55:44] Ok.
Anna Jonak: [00:55:45] You can rewire your brain literally by changing behaviour and repeating it. And quite often it's easier to break the thinking through the acting first. So the thinking it's still gonna be there. It's still going to come in. But you choose to act otherwise. Like I said go do something that's really uncomfortable just do it. You're still going to have that voice, the little floundering voice in the background. But the more you do the other thing the more you are cementing it. You've so got this. If you pour that passion and that the energy and that why, seriously into this, [explosion sound]
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:56:23] Really [laughs] okay.
Anna Jonak: [00:56:25] Don't you dare end on that really with me.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:56:28] No I won't I won't I won't, at all. I can it see in my head. I can visualise so clearly.
Anna Jonak: [00:56:38] But I want that visual. I want you to cement that I want this to be the next thing that you do is to literally cement this whole thing right now in something which means so goddamn much to you. Awesome so what's the next thing you going to do.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:56:57] I am, like right now.
Anna Jonak: [00:57:03] Yeah.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:57:05] I'm going to get off this phone call and I'm going to go do some art.
Anna Jonak: [00:57:12] Yes !
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:57:12] Because I'm dying to. That's what I'm going today. And I am going to apply to put my work out there in some form and if I get knocked back, then I get knocked back and that's ok.
Anna Jonak: [00:57:29] Yes. That is what I want to see and oh my god can I say that your smile is like ridiculous right now. [both laugh] Like you've got this mega huge smile across your face like Yeah man, I think I'm really doing this.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:57:45] Yeah yeah. And I'm going to smile for such a long time. [laughs]
Anna Jonak: [00:57:50] Yay! Well I feel like we have got to a point where you certainly have a lot to take forward. [Avanthi agrees]. And I think that when you listen to this again and when you go to do the piece of artwork that you are just going to be reinforcing so much yourself and I'm actually incredibly excited to see what is next for you. Where to from here. And I have no doubt that if you embrace it with that smile and the energy and the passion that you have, like I said, it's going to take you, it's going to take you places because that's the starting point.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:58:24] Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah. It's been amazing.
Anna Jonak: [00:58:31] Didn't know what you were going to expect. Did you. No idea.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:58:35] I had no idea. Whatever I was expecting, it wasn't that [laughs].
Anna Jonak: [00:58:40] Yep. Sometimes with coaching, I think it's very difficult to explain the journey that you can take someone on.
Avanthi Ravindran: [00:58:49] Yes and I think the questions that you asked forced me to unpack a lot of things that I didn't want to face. I think. That was great. I needed that.
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